*** INTRODUCTION ***

What is a 'bull-herder', and what is this project about?

A bull-herder (a term I invented myself) is any mix of shepherd/herder (lupoid) type dog with bull (molossoid) type.
This type of cross seems to be increasingly popular, with (I suppose) people aiming to find a balance between the qualities of each type, and enjoy 'the best of both worlds'.
Indeed, as my research will show, this kind of mix is nothing new- and evidence suggests that it can produce some very useful working dogs, for some quite different roles.

My own PARTICULAR interest in this whole thing is the possibility of creating 'all-rounders'; multipurpose dogs that can guard a bit, hunt a bit, use their noses and fit into different working and living situations.

Yeah, don't misunderstand me. I'm sure you produce some very, very good working dogs. I'd be happy to own one. I've just suggested that (like many other working types) they're not 'pure' English bull terriers. Nothing wrong with that. Function is the important thing. Your dogs are bred for function, that's obvious. You mention Ian- who I know, but not well. He has produced some awesome dogs. He works and breeds KNPV line 'x mechelse herders'. That type of dog are not 'pure', but can be a mix of malinois, pit bull, German shepherd and who knows what else! 　 That's not a problem, as they're bred for work and not for show... (the same as your dogs!). KNPV herders are what I call 'performance-bred mongrels', and the good ones are very, very useful animals.

Read these 2 books when next at the library DB Plummer books Nathan a fighting dog in the 19 century also Dairies of a artisan hunter.

You talk about my mind (I'm a bit pissed, so excuse me!), well I think you'll see quite soon how hunting, ringsports and the whole bull herder thing all tie in with survival and the essence of human/canine symbiosis...

I'm happy to use pit blood, as well as EBT. I just won't mention that on a public post, as they're illegal in the UK!

 

The EBT because historically they have been used for both hunting and guarding.

 

I like their funny characters, their look.

The first

illustrated brochure about the Belgian Shepherd Dog was published by the Club of

Malines ("It was also the first time that something official was written about this

Flemish breed in the Flemish language." wrote L

.

HUYGHEBAERT)

.

Without

neglecting

the

morphological aspects, the fanciers of Malines preferred a well trained

dog

.

This one, had to be in the first place, a "utility dog

,"

The exterior aspect was not

the main point but had to go along with the character, i.e. they preferred talented

dogs who are the same time well built and

have

an friendly and intelligent aspect.

The Club of Malines organized in Malines at the Botanic Garde

ns, on Sunday the 12th

of July 1903,

a big dog show of shepherd dogs and draught dogs

.

The Professor

A.REUL qualified this as "a unique experience in the world" and that meant the

beginning of the police dogs

.

The exhibition was followed on Monday the 1

3

t

h

of July

at 5 o'clock a.m., on a reserved piece of land, Boulevard de

l

'Abattoir, by a dressage

trial with a swimming exercise

for the Belgian Shepherd Dogs to show their qualities

of intelligence, obedience and loyalty of a shepherd dog

.

There was also a

trial for

draught dogs and trials for yokes

.

It was L. VANDER SNICKT who had the idea of this

trial

.

The first prize was won by CORA I, the mother of TJOP.

Already in a letter dated on the 3

1st

of December 1897, and addressed to L.

VANDER SNICKT, chief ed

itor of

Chasse et Peche

who was also an all round judge, L.

HUYGHEBAERT expressed himself as follows

:

"I am far from pretending that sheepdog trials are useless; but,

according to my humble opinion, there should exist a way to replace

them by useful trials

and in which all the shepherd dogs could

participate, as well those who guard the sheep as those who

do not

and they are as numerous

.

We are wrong to imitate everything that

goes on in Scotland

.

In that country, there are huge flocks, but in

Belgium

, the situation is totally different

.

We have almost no sheep

..

.

Our efforts should more accentuate and develop the brilliant

qualities of the so called shepherd dog, as house dog and traveling

companion...The trials would have simply for aim to bring f

orward the

three fundamental characteristics that a shepherd dog should possess:

intelligence, obedience and loyalty

.

Do not

you think that these trials

would be very interesting and that they would have a lot of

success?..."

This is a passage written by P

rofessor A.REUL about the practical utility of these

trials in the zoological future of these breeds

:

"About the dressage, we estimate that the methods must beyond any

doubt develop the faculties of the brain, and at the same time through

gymnastics develo

p every internal organ such as the heart and the

lungs, and also those who make the body move

.

All this will be

dominated by an absolute and prompt obedience that is shown at the

first movement or at the first shout or the first blown whistle

.

The

24

native

intelligence of the shepherd dog and its marvelous instinctive

qualities are at the contrary lost through inaction, by the stay in

another

surrounding, in the city, for example, far away from the

pastures were the breed unfolds its brilliant intrinsic qual

ities."

Sports are hard work and a challenge- and that's why I want to do them.

???RRR???

http://www.angelplace.net/mal/Vanbutsele.pdf

*** Balancing specialisation and all-round ability will be a challenge. ***

How could the BEST pups turn out, how could the WORST pups turn out...?

...

ME- Those (different bull-herder types) are dogs from numerous countries, bred for different jobs...

Yes but so similar in other ways.

 

ME- 

No doubt. There will be some pretty massive differences in temperament and particular working ability, across the board.

Some are herding and guarding dogs, some hunting dogs, some police or sport dogs.

Yes your right in some ways. A collie will herd sheep but can catch rabbits on lamp be used for ferreting or long netting . Seen collies guard up farm yards.

 

ME-

I'm right in ALL ways! LOL All-rounders may be something that already exist, and also what I'm after producing- but there is no doubt that some hunting dogs will make useless guards, and some farm guard dogs would be useless for the police or high-level dog sports... Am I wrong?!

 

Planning some experimental crosses between different types of dog, and I have to remind myself to ask this question: 'Potentially, how could the BEST pups turn out, and how could the WORST pups turn out...?'

 

Here's a thought; take your beloved collie who does a bit of everything, cross him with a staffy and it'd VERY likely you'll suddenly get pups that are useless for both herding and guarding. There may be exceptions! Collie x staff (a legitimate bull-herder mix) might still be great for some kinds of hunting, and loads of dog sports, though...

Even potentially for nosework (detection/tracking/search and rescue)

 

 

 

 

* This project is a challenge to see what I can do with what life gives me. :)  *



---

A vanity project?! LOL

---

Whilst I shape this project, this project also shapes me...

Both attention to detail, and the 'bigger picture'.

'Best of both worlds'

* It's key that we find the right dogs for our jobs, and the right jobs for our dogs. *

* Manoeuvring pieces of the puzzle. *

http://necsi.edu/projects/evolution/lamarck/lamarck/lamarck_lamarck.html

https://io9.gizmodo.com/5866001/lamarcks-bizarre-theory-of-evolution-may-turn-out-to-be-right-after-all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inheritance_of_acquired_characteristics

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201312/revolution-in-evolution-return-lamarck

* How can I use the concept of 'reverse engineering' to my advantage? *

*** IDENTIFYING KEY NEEDS/AREAS/NICHES TO SELECT AND BREED FOR. ***

RRR

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/grip.html

CGC? BH? My own 'TTs'? :)

Ringsports and hunting (alongside a few other 'bits') can form the backbone of the working tests.

Building on and from the base of the squat/site dog model, but SUPERCHARGING them! :)

Ambulance dogs (see 'chien de guerre' essay etc.)

Both wolves and man following the herds, and also scavenging and gathering along the way.

This led to mutual hunting, then on to managing the herds as nomads, through to droving and then finally to settled agriculture, with separated and closed off land and fields.

MNSBSTFRND

DOG - I- GOD

DESIRABLE: FAST MATURING

MEDIUM SIZED TO START PHYSICAL WORK EARLY, AND HAVE A LONG CAREER

*** The comic aspect of bull terriers and some staffs/pits.

The cheeky and devilish nature that some of them and some malis share :) ***

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_dog

Lupoids the most basic, original version of the dog.

The bull breeds are (perhaps) the most modified and artificial of the functional dog types?

*** THE ROLES OF THE DOMESTICATED DOG HAVE BEEN SO VARIED, AND HAVE UNDERGONE SUCH CHANGES ***

ADAPTABILITY, AGAIN...

History

James Hinks Bullterrier

A Bull Terrier circa 1915

At the start of the 19th century the "Bull and Terrier" breeds were developed to satisfy the needs for vermin control and animal-based blood sports. The Bull and Terriers were based on the Old English Bulldog (now extinct) and Old English Terriers with possible other terriers. This new breed combined the speed and dexterity of lightly built terriers with the dour tenacity of the Bulldog, which was a poor performer in most combat situations, having been bred almost exclusively for fighting bulls and bears tied to a post. Many breeders began to breed bulldogs with terriers, arguing that such a mixture enhances the quality of fighting. Despite the fact that a cross between a bulldog and a terrier was of high value, very little or nothing was done to preserve the breed in its original form. Due to the lack of breed standards—breeding was for performance, not appearance—the "Bull and Terrier" eventually divided into the ancestors of "Bull Terriers" and "Staffordshire Bull Terriers", both smaller and easier to handle than the progenitor.^{[10][11][12][13]}
In the mid-19th century James Hinks started breeding Bull and Terriers with "English White Terriers" (now extinct), looking for a cleaner appearance with better legs and nicer head. In 1862, Hinks entered a dam called "Puss" sired by his white Bulldog called "Madman" into the Bull Terrier Class at the dog show held at the Cremorne Gardens in Chelsea. Originally known as the "Hinks Breed" and "The White Cavalier", these dogs did not yet have the now-familiar "egg face", but kept the stop in the skull profile.^[14][15][16] The dog was immediately popular and breeding continued, using Dalmatian, Spanish Pointer, and Whippet to increase elegance and agility; and Borzoi and Rough Collie to reduce the stop. Hinks wanted his dogs white, and bred specifically for this. The first modern Bull Terrier is now recognised as "Lord Gladiator", from 1917, being the first dog with no stop at all.^{[10][14][15][17][18]}
Due to medical problems associated with all-white breeding, Ted Lyon among others began introducing colour, using Staffordshire Bull Terriers in the early 20th century. Coloured Bull Terriers were recognised as a separate variety (at least by the AKC) in 1936. Brindle is the preferred colour, but other colours are welcome.^[16][19]
Along with conformation, specific behaviour traits were sought. The epithet "White cavalier", harking back to an age of chivalry, was bestowed on a breed which while never seeking to start a fight was well able to finish one, while socialising well with its "pack", including children and pups. Hinks himself had always aimed at a "gentleman's companion" dog rather than a pit-fighter—though Bullies were often entered in the pits, with some success.

*** BLOODSPORTS ***

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=BLOODSPORTS+DOGS&oq=BLOODSPORTS+DOGS&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30k1.2429.5033.0.5285.6.6.0.0.0.0.74.381.6.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.6.379...0j0i7i30k1j0i10k1.0.uba-wW4vLKE

*** Real scenario versions of ringsport 'protection with control' exercises ***

I fucking hate these big massive shepherds

and dobes

OK

mals are off down the same path

they'll all be fucked soon

 

ME-

 

In fairness, there were some big Belgian shepherds I've seen in old photos. I've read one historian who details how they were used as both cart dogs and as smugglers dogs, carrying fairly large loads. There is a now extinct Belgian mastiff, which apparently they were interbred with...

VERY interesting.....(balance, and opposites)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RikxTES2Hzk

*** RUSTICITY ***

50/50 .............. 75/25..........ETC.!

*** SV ***

Yeah the only way is forwards!! When I first got into protection dogs I didn't have much support. I had family who have always had dogs who are naturally aggressive but stared in pits and eventually discovered the Malinois. I trained for years with some controversial people (who I strongly do not associate with anymore- The Bhola family) learnt more about what not to do. And stuck to my own trial and error. I have worked lots of dogs from the age of around 17 all breeds mainly in protection. From the days when we used to just wrap a towel on our arms. My dog sport was always a nessecity to have a dog that will protect not so much for doing flashy stuff with Growing up in south London and some of my fam and friends having off licences which have a tendency to being robbed came with ups and downs so I eventually got into dogs for this purpose It's always been about a dog that will not only scare a crowd of Yobbs who have all just run inside the shop but there have been times the only thing that has stopped the guy with a gun pointing it at the guy on the till being the sound of a Bull coming at him One of our guys even got shot with a sawn off through the till in the groin It was in the news paper So they have had their fair share of live bites

You probably won't find too many people in the UK who will work dogs quite as much as I will...

I have lots of time, passion and energy- and I spend half the week at 5K9 anyway- with the field, all the environmental and agility equipment, Sati as a trainer and other decoys who are learning. I know people who hunt a lot, etc. etc.

I can train (something) every day, and even twice a day with up to several dogs. That's my plan. As long as I do enough work to survive, I'm quite happy to spend 6-8 hours training dogs every day, and a few more hours reading, studying, writing and talking about it!

I (of course) fully agree that solid nerve is absolutely a must in the kinds of protection/security/police dogs we're used to dealing with and talking about. My aim is to (experimentally) breed different lines of 'bull-herder', for different roles- and one of those lines would be like an old rough, rustic rustic farm dog (think dogo sardo, cao de fila de sao miguel etc.). Those dogs traditionally have high defense/low threshold- but not always the absolutely most solid nerve, when really pressed.

do you mind if I suggest something?

Of course not! LOL

try not shouting comands at her but rather have a conversation with her. "Speak cues" , give it a go man, she'll do stuff quicker and with less conflict. Hope you dont mind that observation

this vid is awesome by the way

https://www.facebook.com/derek.crankshaft/videos/pcb.10203630228233451/10203630094870117/?type=3&theater

-2:13

Kemlyn Munn ha añadido un nuevo vídeo.

Kemlyn Munn

I appreciate that. Trust me, we have all kinds of communication going, and a whole range of control levels, from completely free and loose, to what you saw in the video. Certain things (like the recall) have to be solid even with great distraction (like squirrels and other dogs), and for this only yelling works. That's the baseline for that kind of thing. We only spend a few minutes on that kind of obedience a day, or not even every day. The more open, looser, everyday stuff is our bread and butter.

cool

Bearing in mind that when I call her back, she's usually either rooting around in some bushes, or off to play with a group of dogs or go down a path (at distance) that I'm not following etc.

Honestly, we have lots of fun and we communicate on many levels. A certain type of obedience I do in a military style, and it works for me (not saying there might not be better ways! LOL). Rest assured, I'm not barking orders at her every minute of her waking life. It's usually whistles, clapping my hands, making kissing sounds with my lips, just saying her name or using hand siganls and glances. Hand signals and glances play a massive part in my repetoire, especially when dogs (like Molly is) are smart and responsive...

But I'm yet to get a sharp recall with neat front presentation from a dog that's sniffing fast food litter or running straight to jump in the lake with just hand signals and glances! LOL The drill sergeant routine is the only one I've got to work.

I'll take on board what you said, and see when and where I can follow your suggestions (I'll get Sharon to film a normal walk through the park and woods, etc. too).

Understanding the environment in terms of both protection and hunting skills.

Doing our part of the job competently, so that the dog/s can do theirs...

WAY THAT WOLVES, FARM DOGS OR LIVESTOCK GUARDIANS ATTACK

COVER

QUOTES

INTRO

HISTORY OF DOGS AND MAN

HISTORY OF HERDER/SHEPHERD TYPES

HISTORY OF BULL-AND-TERRIER TYPES

SOME 'TRADITIONAL' BULL-HERDER TYPES

'Synthesis', 'synergy' and other words are useful for developing an approach and philosophy to this whole thing.

I am, admittedly, something of a nerd and in many ways an introvert.
I have a flamboyant extroverted side, and a good degree of social skill (when I can be bothered), but for the most part I enjoy just being on my own, thinking, observing, studying, researching and, yes- writing! :) Balancing and integrating thought with action is key, and so I must constantly take the abstract or intellectual information and ideas I am collecting, developing and assimilating, and connect them in a kind of 'feedback loop' with the actual hands-on stuff I'm doing, living with and working with dogs. My academic study informs my practical skills and mentality, which in turn guides the directions and focus of my research and contemplation.

Christian De Boeck

Administrador · 2 de febrero de 2015

If I do ever, as many people are urging me to, get around to writing a book on the history of the Belgian Shepherd Dog, it will have this quotation under the title on the Title Page: :)
"Before the standard was written.... they were just a brown dog owned by some Belgian farmers." - Lynda Trotter

The guy who's planning a pit x mali breeding, early next year, said this: ''I've got a line of pits established traits of being hard headed in protection, game to hunt and balanced family dogs

Unfortunately a lot taken away but we have the core stock still to keep it going

Mali is only to disguise them like a wolf in a sheeps blanket.............I've got a line of pits established traits of being hard headed in protection, game to hunt and balanced family dogs

Unfortunately a lot taken away but we have the core stock still to keep it going

Mali is only to disguise them like a wolf in a sheeps blanket.........One of the offspring from my pit to bandog breedings was sent to Germany for wild boar hunting

Last I head he was doing well lost contact at the moment..........

A mate in Wales has had a few that he uses for badgers etc.''

 

--------

Me- 

Yeah, the modern herder types have been worked and tested, but there are still traditional types of dog which do a different kind of job to the police-style malis or GSDs.

 

Tracy Wessel I think in looking at history, we have to also consider what "improvements" were intended going forward. Some "improvements" that were intended were not particularly desirable and perhaps others were. But it's clear that the dogs of yesterday were essential in daily life. For some of us they still are. For example those of us, like myself, with farms, or with service needs, hunting/search needs, or even guardian needs... but truly the old farm/patrol dog had many jobs, and I doubt their more defensive traits are as deeply understood or accepted in today's society - and probably should be appreciated MORE because they are still valuable.

 

 

  --------

 

 

http://www.oocities.org/heartland/ridge/4816/hist1.htm

Malinois-type dogs pulling carts.

Christian De BoeckAdministrador del grupo The history that has been totally ignored, swept under the carpet or was unknown to amateur "historians" of the breed until now is that of our Belgian smugglers and the thousands of dogs they employed to smuggle contraband, mainly over the Franco-Belgian border. The number of dogs they employed at any given time was far larger than the number of dogs employed by the shepherds of the time. There was a bounty on these dogs and thousands were killed by customs officers, who themselves used dogs to counter the smugglers. This group is the first place where that history has also been covered in depth and documented for the first time

Edmond Moucheron on the right with an assistant and his dogs. Moucheron is credited as being the founder of what became Belgian ringsport. He also bred working Groenendaels under the kennel name Chenil Dax, named after one of his most famous dogs.

 

Christian De BoeckAdministrador del grupo It is quite a miracle that the working Malinois and Belgian ringsport has survived, considering that even Louis Huyghebaert was vehemently opposed to the sport as well as the type of dog developed specifically for the ring by the working class Flemish. He only relented and had a hand in formalising the sport due to the sage advice and influence of Louis Van der Snickt, who deserves far more credit than he has been given to date. As my copy of Van Ceulebroeck's book was destroyed, so I can't quote from it direct, I attach a scan of page 27 of the doctoral thesis "Etude génétique des qualités de travail dans l'espèce canine : application des méthodes de la génétique quantitative aux épreuves de concours de chiens de défense en race berger belge" of Jean-François Courreau, in which he quotes from pages 183-184 and 210-211 of Georges Van Ceulebroeck's "L'Historique du Berger Belge" (1983) recounting Huygehebaert's fallout with and resignation from the club he co-founded with his brother Frans and Dr Geudens and his founding of a new club, which floundered due to a lack of support.

Christian De Boeck

According to this booklet published by the Belgian National Museum for Customs and Excise, between the years of 1820 and 1836 alone, 40.300 smuggler's dogs will killed by customs officers. These dogs were primarily of the shepherd and mastiff types preferred by the smugglers.

 

'KNPV'

Kemlyn's No Paperwork Variety! :p LOL

Penny Tanin Why are they muzzled? I find these photos really unpleasant n disturbing

Me gusta

· Responder ·

1

· 13 de septiembre a las 22:59

Administrar

Anton Holub First, the law in our country requires wearing a muzzle in crowded places, especially for bull terriers

Me gusta

· Responder ·

3

· 15 de septiembre a las 20:35

Administrar

Anton Holub Secondly, most people are afraid of bull terriers, pit bull terriers, etc. I do not want to give them psychological discomfort

Me gusta

· Responder ·

2

· 15 de septiembre a las 20:39

Administrar

Anton Holub in the third, in my dogs all the instincts work, as conceived by nature, which means that if they are bitten by the eggs of a small crazy chihuahua, the chihuahua may die within a couple of seconds. If a drunken freak or drug addict waving his arms and shouting near the owner of the dog, the dog will defend

Me gusta

· Responder ·

3

· 15 de septiembre a las 20:49

Administrar

Anton Holub in the fourth, in our country there are people who poison the homeless dogs, scattering poisoned food (they are called doghunters). the muzzle helps to avoid picking up the poison

Me gusta

· Responder ·

3

· 15 de septiembre a las 20:56

Administrar

Anton Holub Fifth, we have enough bastards that can provoke my dogs, and often after a dog bite, a policeman can shoot a dog right away, and I love my dogs, muzzling is protecting my dogs from a crazy and aggressive society

Me gusta

· Responder ·

3

· 15 de septiembre a las 21:03

Administrar

Anton Holub to keep a real bull terrier, it's very difficult, my dogs are loaded, full of fire and drive, old-type bull terriers with complex character, as it should be in the breed, so I must exercise caution and responsibility. And they do not spend much time in muzzles. I hope that I answered, in my broken English? P.C. your question a little confused me

The training field as a 'dojo', laboratory and place of worship...

WATCH OUT!...

...THE DOG MIGHT BITE.

...THE POLICE HAVE BEEN CALLED.

...THIS DOG'S GOT FUCKING PROBLEM... (LOL)