RRRSSS
https://retrieverman.net/2010/10/08/intellectual-honesty-on-the-effects-of-trials-and-shows/
***
http://www.angelplace.net/dog/Requsites.pdf
------------
collie x bull terrier types
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBLlcQKjnIo
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/cb/f5/79/cbf57907fac48aad79a0526a0cd2e389.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7purka_8Xw
Wednesday, 30 August 2017
Tuesday, 29 August 2017
Monday, 28 August 2017
RRRSSSWWW
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=australian+cattle+dogs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw8auYsvrVAhVBElAKHe5VCu8Q_AUICigB&biw=1760&bih=989
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dogo+sardo&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiU15Tl1PrVAhXEZlAKHb2vDF4Q_AUICigB
Indie and Sali
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXnYKz3rsU
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=australian+cattle+dogs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw8auYsvrVAhVBElAKHe5VCu8Q_AUICigB&biw=1760&bih=989
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dogo+sardo&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiU15Tl1PrVAhXEZlAKHb2vDF4Q_AUICigB
Indie and Sali
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXnYKz3rsU
The indigenous herding dog of Wales has origins so ancient that they have become a part of folklore and its full lineage is lost in the mists of time. It is thought that the Gellgi or ‘covert hound’ may be an early ancestor. Manuscripts relating to Welsh Law dating back over 800 years mention herding dogs: “The herd-dog…that guards the stock and goes before them in the morning and comes home behind them at night” is recognisable as a forebear of the modern Welsh Sheepdog. Even then these herding dogs were so highly prized that they were regarded as worth the same as “the most important beast of the stock he guards.” The early Welsh farm dogs would have had a dual role, with protection of their owners and animals from rustlers and wild animals as important as their herding duties. Dafydd ap Gwilym, writing in the mid-1300’s, mentions visiting a farmhouse and encountering a red dog that was guarding there, which rushed out to meet him.
As British Agriculture evolved, farmers would send their stock from the mountains to be sold at the markets in England. Cattle, sheep, pigs and even geese were driven, on foot, for hundreds of miles - often over wild, open country - with their destination the fattening grounds and meat markets in the Home Counties. Just a few men and their dogs could take 300 or more cattle at a time. It was paramount to keep the herds safe and calm as their welfare was essential to the livelihood of both the drover and to the owners of the cattle back in Wales. Drovers' dogs were fundamental in this task, and had to be hardworking and resourceful, preventing stock from their mob escaping but not collecting extras from the surrounding countryside and guarding the herds at night. Some of the predominant working traits of the modern breed, such as strong guarding instincts and the inbred instinct to circle a large mob of livestock, bear witness to their ancestry. Early photographic evidence is hard to find, but a map of a Plynlimon estate, dated 1810, has an illustration of a red dog with white markings very similar to our dogs today.
Sheepdog trials, first introduced in the late 1800's, made the Scottish Border Collie very popular. Much cross breeding took place and the native Welsh type was becoming much diluted though small pockets of relatively pure stock remained. Historically there had been no record of the genealogy of these dogs and so the only evidence available as to the purity of their breeding line is their true ‘Welsh’ manner of working.
*** LETTING NATURE, NEED AND OPPORTUNITY GUIDE US ***
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=welsh+sheepdog&oq=welsh+sheepdog&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l4.12734.13662.0.13868.5.5.0.0.0.0.90.318.5.5.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.5.315.TDJ-6CxJm_s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Sheepdog
The Welsh Sheepdog (Welsh: Ci Defaid Cymreig, pronounced [kiː dɛˈvaɪd kəmˈrɛɨɡ]) is a landrace of herding dog from Wales. It is sometimes known as the Welsh Collie.
Like other types of working dog, Welsh Sheepdogs are normally bred for their herding abilities rather than appearance, and so they are generally somewhat variable in build, colour and size. Welsh Sheepdogs are of collie type, usually black-and-white, red-and-white or tricolour, and merle markings may occur over any of these combinations. The coat may be short or fairly long, and the ears are pricked, but usually folded at the tip. They are longer in leg, broader in chest and wider in muzzle than the Border Collie. They are extremely active and intelligent, and therefore need much exercise and mental stimulation, if they are to be kept as pets.
Over many decades the Welsh Sheepdog has largely been replaced for working sheep in Wales by the Border Collie, a standardised breed. However, in more recent years, efforts have been made to maintain the indigenous Welsh Sheepdog as a distinct variety.
Welsh Sheepdogs are usually of loose-eyed action, not fixing the stock with their gaze like the strong-eyed Border Collie. They are able to work independently without necessarily being under direct human control. Welsh Sheepdogs are most often used for herding sheep, but also readily work cattle, goats, and even horses and pigs. Traditionally they were often used as droving dogs to take cattle and sheep to markets locally or elsewhere in Britain.
At one time there existed many sheep-herding dogs peculiar to Wales; during the 18th century Welsh drovers taking sheep for sale took with them five or six sheepdogs as "herders on the narrow roads, guards against highwaymen, and providers of game on the route".[1] These were an early type of Welsh Sheepdog, higher on the leg and more racily built than the modern day breed.[1]
However, by the 1940s the group had decreased to two or three breeds only.[1] The ancient pure breeds of Black-and-Tan Sheepdog and Welsh Hillman were almost extinct, and were scarcely seen working. The type best known in Wales at that time was mostly descended from the old Black-and-Tan with an infusion of working Border Collie blood.[1]
In the 1940s the Welsh Sheepdog was still common throughout the north and central Welsh counties. In herding activities, it did not normally work low to the ground in "the showy manner sometimes seen in the work of the working [Border] Collies", as British dog fancier C. L. B. Hubbard put it in 1948.[1] It was variable in type; approximately 18 in (46 cm) in height, but the weight ranged from the lighter built, leggier dog of North Wales at 35 lb (16 kg) to the more solid 40 to 45 lb (18 to 20 kg) dogs of Glamorganshire and Monmouthshire. There were no dog show classes for the Welsh Sheepdog as it was purely a working breed.[1]
...
Originally, the dogs were used not just for working huge tracts of open land, but also for protection against wolves and robbers.
"Drovers would use the dogs to herd sheep and cattle, hundreds of miles up to the fattening pastures of England," says farmer Huw Thomas. "On the way back, once the stock had been sold, these lads would be travelling with pocketfuls of money, so sheepdogs made effective guard dogs."
------
The Australian Kelpie, or simply Kelpie, is an Australian sheep dog successful at mustering and droving with little or no guidance. It is a medium-sized dog and comes in a variety of colours. The Kelpie has been exported throughout the world and is used to muster livestock, primarily sheep, cattle and goats.
The ancestors of the Kelpie were simply (black) dogs, called Colleys or Collies. The word collie has the same root as coal and collier (a ship).[3][4] Some of these collies were imported to Australia for stock work in the early 19th century, and were bred to other types of dogs (possibly including the occasional Dingo), but always with an eye to working sheep without direct supervision. Today's Collie breeds were not formed until about ten or 15 years after the Kelpie was established as a breed,[5] with the first official Border Collie not brought to Australia until after Federation in 1901.[6]
Kelpies are partly descended from Dingoes, with 3–4% of their genes coming from the native Australian dog.[7] At the time of the origin of the breed, it was illegal to keep dingoes as pets, some dingo owners registered their animals as Kelpies or Kelpie crosses. Kelpies and dingoes are similar in conformation and colouring. There is no doubt that some people have deliberately mated dingoes to their Kelpies, and some opinion holds that the best dilution is 1/16–1/32, but that 1/2 and 1/4 will work.[8] As the Dingo has been regarded as a savage sheep-killer since the first European settlement of Australia, few will admit to the practice.[8]
The first dog called a Kelpie was a black and tan female pup with floppy ears bought by Jack Gleeson about 1872[9] from a litter born on Warrock Station near Casterton, owned by George Robertson, a Scot. This dog was named kelpie after the kelpie, a mythological shape shifting water spirit of Celtic folklore.[10] Legend has it that "Kelpie" was sired by a dingo, but there is little evidence for or against this. In later years she was referred to as "(Gleeson's) Kelpie", to differentiate her from "(King's) Kelpie", her daughter.
The second "Kelpie" was "(King's) Kelpie", another black and tan bitch out of "Kelpie" by "Caesar", a pup from two sheepdogs imported from Scotland. However, challenges have been made[according to whom?] that these two sheepdogs were not from Scotland and may have had dingo blood.[citation needed] "(King's) Kelpie" tied the prestigious Forbes Trial in 1879,[11] and the strain was soon popularly referred to as "Kelpie's pups", or just Kelpies. The King brothers joined another breeder, McLeod, to form a dog breeding partnership whose dogs dominated trials during 1900 to 1920.[9]
An early Kelpie, Sally, was mated to Moss, a smooth haired Collie, and she produced a black pup that was named Barb after The Barb, a black horse which had won the Melbourne Cup in 1866. Consequently, black Kelpies became known as Barb Kelpies.[12]
There were a number of Kelpies named Red Cloud. The first and most famous was John Quinn's Red Cloud in the early 20th century. In the 1960s, another Red Cloud became well known in Western Australia. This started the tradition in Western Australia of calling all red or red and tan Kelpies, especially those with white chests, Red Cloud Kelpies.[13] Other notable specimens include Gunner and Red Dog (c. 1971 – 21 November 1979), a Kelpie mix which was the subject of a movie, Red Dog, released in 2011.
Kelpies have now been exported to many countries including Argentina, Canada, Italy, Korea, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States for various pursuits.[12]
By 1990, Kelpies have been trained as scent dogs with good success
rates. In Sweden they are widely used for tracking and rescue work.
...
A Working Kelpie can be a cheap and efficient worker that can save farmers and graziers the cost of several hands when mustering livestock.[23] The good working Kelpies are herding dogs that will prevent stock from moving away from the stockman.[24] This natural instinct is crucial when mustering stock in isolated gorge country, where a good dog will silently move ahead of the stockman and block up the stock (usually cattle) until the rider appears. The preferred dogs for cattle work are Kelpies, often of a special line, or a Kelpie cross.[25] They will drive a mob of livestock long distances in extremes of climates and conditions. Kelpies have natural instincts for managing livestock. They will work sheep, cattle, goats, pigs, poultry, and other domestic livestock. The Kelpie's signature move is to jump on the backs of sheep and walk across the tops of the sheep to reach the other side and break up the jam. A good working Kelpie is a versatile dog—they can work all day on the farm, ranch, or station, and trial on the weekends. Kelpies compete and are exhibited in livestock working trials, ranging from yards or arenas to large open fields working sheep, goats, cattle, or ducks.[12]
-------------------------------------
ME-could you give me any info about dogs in Molly's background/pedigree?
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=welsh+sheepdog&oq=welsh+sheepdog&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l4.12734.13662.0.13868.5.5.0.0.0.0.90.318.5.5.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.5.315.TDJ-6CxJm_s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Sheepdog
The Welsh Sheepdog (Welsh: Ci Defaid Cymreig, pronounced [kiː dɛˈvaɪd kəmˈrɛɨɡ]) is a landrace of herding dog from Wales. It is sometimes known as the Welsh Collie.
Like other types of working dog, Welsh Sheepdogs are normally bred for their herding abilities rather than appearance, and so they are generally somewhat variable in build, colour and size. Welsh Sheepdogs are of collie type, usually black-and-white, red-and-white or tricolour, and merle markings may occur over any of these combinations. The coat may be short or fairly long, and the ears are pricked, but usually folded at the tip. They are longer in leg, broader in chest and wider in muzzle than the Border Collie. They are extremely active and intelligent, and therefore need much exercise and mental stimulation, if they are to be kept as pets.
Over many decades the Welsh Sheepdog has largely been replaced for working sheep in Wales by the Border Collie, a standardised breed. However, in more recent years, efforts have been made to maintain the indigenous Welsh Sheepdog as a distinct variety.
Welsh Sheepdogs are usually of loose-eyed action, not fixing the stock with their gaze like the strong-eyed Border Collie. They are able to work independently without necessarily being under direct human control. Welsh Sheepdogs are most often used for herding sheep, but also readily work cattle, goats, and even horses and pigs. Traditionally they were often used as droving dogs to take cattle and sheep to markets locally or elsewhere in Britain.
At one time there existed many sheep-herding dogs peculiar to Wales; during the 18th century Welsh drovers taking sheep for sale took with them five or six sheepdogs as "herders on the narrow roads, guards against highwaymen, and providers of game on the route".[1] These were an early type of Welsh Sheepdog, higher on the leg and more racily built than the modern day breed.[1]
However, by the 1940s the group had decreased to two or three breeds only.[1] The ancient pure breeds of Black-and-Tan Sheepdog and Welsh Hillman were almost extinct, and were scarcely seen working. The type best known in Wales at that time was mostly descended from the old Black-and-Tan with an infusion of working Border Collie blood.[1]
In the 1940s the Welsh Sheepdog was still common throughout the north and central Welsh counties. In herding activities, it did not normally work low to the ground in "the showy manner sometimes seen in the work of the working [Border] Collies", as British dog fancier C. L. B. Hubbard put it in 1948.[1] It was variable in type; approximately 18 in (46 cm) in height, but the weight ranged from the lighter built, leggier dog of North Wales at 35 lb (16 kg) to the more solid 40 to 45 lb (18 to 20 kg) dogs of Glamorganshire and Monmouthshire. There were no dog show classes for the Welsh Sheepdog as it was purely a working breed.[1]
...
Originally, the dogs were used not just for working huge tracts of open land, but also for protection against wolves and robbers.
"Drovers would use the dogs to herd sheep and cattle, hundreds of miles up to the fattening pastures of England," says farmer Huw Thomas. "On the way back, once the stock had been sold, these lads would be travelling with pocketfuls of money, so sheepdogs made effective guard dogs."
------
The Australian Kelpie, or simply Kelpie, is an Australian sheep dog successful at mustering and droving with little or no guidance. It is a medium-sized dog and comes in a variety of colours. The Kelpie has been exported throughout the world and is used to muster livestock, primarily sheep, cattle and goats.
The ancestors of the Kelpie were simply (black) dogs, called Colleys or Collies. The word collie has the same root as coal and collier (a ship).[3][4] Some of these collies were imported to Australia for stock work in the early 19th century, and were bred to other types of dogs (possibly including the occasional Dingo), but always with an eye to working sheep without direct supervision. Today's Collie breeds were not formed until about ten or 15 years after the Kelpie was established as a breed,[5] with the first official Border Collie not brought to Australia until after Federation in 1901.[6]
Kelpies are partly descended from Dingoes, with 3–4% of their genes coming from the native Australian dog.[7] At the time of the origin of the breed, it was illegal to keep dingoes as pets, some dingo owners registered their animals as Kelpies or Kelpie crosses. Kelpies and dingoes are similar in conformation and colouring. There is no doubt that some people have deliberately mated dingoes to their Kelpies, and some opinion holds that the best dilution is 1/16–1/32, but that 1/2 and 1/4 will work.[8] As the Dingo has been regarded as a savage sheep-killer since the first European settlement of Australia, few will admit to the practice.[8]
The first dog called a Kelpie was a black and tan female pup with floppy ears bought by Jack Gleeson about 1872[9] from a litter born on Warrock Station near Casterton, owned by George Robertson, a Scot. This dog was named kelpie after the kelpie, a mythological shape shifting water spirit of Celtic folklore.[10] Legend has it that "Kelpie" was sired by a dingo, but there is little evidence for or against this. In later years she was referred to as "(Gleeson's) Kelpie", to differentiate her from "(King's) Kelpie", her daughter.
The second "Kelpie" was "(King's) Kelpie", another black and tan bitch out of "Kelpie" by "Caesar", a pup from two sheepdogs imported from Scotland. However, challenges have been made[according to whom?] that these two sheepdogs were not from Scotland and may have had dingo blood.[citation needed] "(King's) Kelpie" tied the prestigious Forbes Trial in 1879,[11] and the strain was soon popularly referred to as "Kelpie's pups", or just Kelpies. The King brothers joined another breeder, McLeod, to form a dog breeding partnership whose dogs dominated trials during 1900 to 1920.[9]
An early Kelpie, Sally, was mated to Moss, a smooth haired Collie, and she produced a black pup that was named Barb after The Barb, a black horse which had won the Melbourne Cup in 1866. Consequently, black Kelpies became known as Barb Kelpies.[12]
There were a number of Kelpies named Red Cloud. The first and most famous was John Quinn's Red Cloud in the early 20th century. In the 1960s, another Red Cloud became well known in Western Australia. This started the tradition in Western Australia of calling all red or red and tan Kelpies, especially those with white chests, Red Cloud Kelpies.[13] Other notable specimens include Gunner and Red Dog (c. 1971 – 21 November 1979), a Kelpie mix which was the subject of a movie, Red Dog, released in 2011.
Kelpies have now been exported to many countries including Argentina, Canada, Italy, Korea, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States for various pursuits.[12]
Kelpie circa 1915
...
A Working Kelpie can be a cheap and efficient worker that can save farmers and graziers the cost of several hands when mustering livestock.[23] The good working Kelpies are herding dogs that will prevent stock from moving away from the stockman.[24] This natural instinct is crucial when mustering stock in isolated gorge country, where a good dog will silently move ahead of the stockman and block up the stock (usually cattle) until the rider appears. The preferred dogs for cattle work are Kelpies, often of a special line, or a Kelpie cross.[25] They will drive a mob of livestock long distances in extremes of climates and conditions. Kelpies have natural instincts for managing livestock. They will work sheep, cattle, goats, pigs, poultry, and other domestic livestock. The Kelpie's signature move is to jump on the backs of sheep and walk across the tops of the sheep to reach the other side and break up the jam. A good working Kelpie is a versatile dog—they can work all day on the farm, ranch, or station, and trial on the weekends. Kelpies compete and are exhibited in livestock working trials, ranging from yards or arenas to large open fields working sheep, goats, cattle, or ducks.[12]
-------------------------------------
ME-could you give me any info about dogs in Molly's background/pedigree?
MATT- only on sali's side sorry, Indies side is completely undocumented, all I can tell you is the mother is pure mali, the father is a mixed bred farm dog. Dude got the mother "off a fella on another farm" and that is pretty much it.
Sali has sport dogs in her ped but her direct parents are both working dogs
the mother is a game keepers dog
Yes, that's amazing! 
and the father is either a military police or police dog if the dude wasnt filling me full of shit
Right, cool!!!
never know see cos people in the dog world are often full of shit
people in general are! ha ha
yah
sali's grandsire on her mother side is an IPO dog from KNPV breeding
lemme have look again not looked as sali's ped in ages
Keep the info coming!!! 
yes
so
If I remember correctly U'vito shows up the most in her ped (which is fairly obvious in her father) but she takes most after the perle de tourbierre dogs
especially Othar
who she has passed down to Rosie and I think Rosie only.
the dog Mr Hanky I think is taking mostly after the U'vito dog but need to see him in real life
Molly is mostly coming from somewhere in Indies ped i would say, with some aspects of sali thrown in the mix
the dog Dingo1 perle de tourbierre was an IPO dog that died unexpectedly in some freak accident on a ferry (or so i was told)
Great info, Matt
I know next to fuck all about sali's mothers mother line
but her top line is mostly made of NBVK on her fathers motherline
Cool
I will copy and paste all this... (into my notes)
but as you go back in her fathers fatherlibe you get to perle de tourbiere again and more KNPV dogs
I'll look all that stuff up.
in terms of her general appearance and mental attitude I would say she resembles NBVK more than anything else appart from her size.
I saw Vongraf in there. I know Earl, the breeder.
OK, cool.
her character is more like the tourbiere dogs if that makes any sense lol
I'll see what I think once we've bonded a bit and played/worked together!
What are the tourbiere dogs like, then?
its weird, she's like a bit schizophrenic (sali) she'll work like a perle ded tourbiere dog but then bite like an NBVK dog
very boundy
bouncy
very drivey pushy energetic dogs
very sport like
theres tons of them on youtune
youtube
but sadly none of Othar 
booooooooooo
most of the tourbiere dogs on youtube are doing IPO
OK
More stuff to research! LOL
strong and calm grips (which Sali can show) whereas Sali tries to eat and inhale the equipment like the u'vito dog
I'll try and find a vid to show you sali with her calm grip
Yes, please!
anyway long story short I wouldn't describe sali as sport breeding, ped maybe rather she is work bred with sport ped. The guy that bred her is old school man, he wouldn't feed a sport dog, her mother is a fucking little beast
lol
OK, understood.
I mean you can describe it however you like, lol, I'm saying i look at it that way myself if you get me
anyway
here's sali as a pup showing calm grip
I think that is aup to 6 months old
up
Cool beans. Will look v. shortly (just writing something else first...)
yeah no worries
I'm just babbling man
she has a genetic pushing bite, she also has a very serious streak so she doesnt like doing bitework with me as a decoy and gets into conflict so I just do dumb prey IPO shite with her and will pull the sleeve to win it. When it is on someone else she pushes and gets into a fight place in her mind then the eating will start lol
I shaped her bite alot towards IPO style bitework at first as that is what I was going to do with her but it soon became aparent that she was more suited to ring stuff so I switched her over to that.
like maybe 18months or so I think
she has passive bite shit like that
which is all a waste of time really because Molly is like Indie more, dont think a passive bite is in her repetoire but it may come about as she ages. She does push though, but only when comfortable, if she feels pressure or stress she will pull.
and i would say that it is nerve related so if she's pushing shes under threshold if she starts pulling she is over
by the way there's a fella who has bred Kelpie x EBT and the litter is very good, I'm wanting to use one of the pups from the litter over Rosie in the future, taht is my next breeding step
well it would be but he seems to have fucked off from fb
Sali's grips are nice. Can see the defensiveness in her, though.
Ok, just read your observations re the decoy bit...
Cool info, again...
ps. Hope you catch up with the EBT x kelpie guy.
Zany mix!
A young bitch I'm hoping to pick up this week is a cross of sport malinois with working farm dog (kelpie x Welsh sheepdog). I hadn't even heard of the Welsh sheepdog before, so I've started reading up on this type. The aim/vision of my Bull-Herder Project is a multi-purpose, all-round 'survival' dog- and so you can imagine my pleasure and excitement when I read the old quote in this Wikipedia entry!!! :)
''At one time there existed many sheep-herding dogs peculiar to Wales; during the 18th century Welsh drovers taking sheep for sale took with them five or six sheepdogs as "herders on the narrow roads, guards against highwaymen, and providers of game on the route". These were an early type of Welsh Sheepdog, higher on the leg and more racily built than the modern day breed.''
Taking herder/shepherd types from protection sport/security/police, detection/tracking and actual herding lines, as well as bull terrier types from hunting, protection and athletic sport backgrounds- and then mixing the two is a VERY intriguing (and hopefully practical!) experiment...
---
My project's quite different to the other crosses of bull x herder that I've been seeing people do. Usually, people's aim seems to be focussed solely on protection/security work. Essentially, the aim (I guess) is for them to create tough, hard dogs that are a physically imposing deterrant, and that can defeat a criminal in combat if needed. The trainability, intelligence, drive, focus and lighter, quicker frame of the shepherd type must be there to improve the dog's all-round 'workability' (I don't even know if that's a real word!
:p
LOL). That, too is a part of my aim/vision- but I also need hunting
ability, and a dog that can fit into a rural working environment where
it roams free, OR live in a family flat and be taken on lead to the
fields to run (and come back when called!) OR be a security dog that
stays in the van until he needs to come out OR a sport dog who's
kenneled until training/competing time. Sounds like a lot to ask, but
then that's what makes it challenging and stimulating. Choosing the
right dogs, testing widely and then (universe willing!) doing breedings
that 'match up' well, there should be some useful and interesting dogs
produced...certainly after a few generations (though hopefully even from
the first breeding! 
:) :) :) ).
''At one time there existed many sheep-herding dogs peculiar to Wales; during the 18th century Welsh drovers taking sheep for sale took with them five or six sheepdogs as "herders on the narrow roads, guards against highwaymen, and providers of game on the route". These were an early type of Welsh Sheepdog, higher on the leg and more racily built than the modern day breed.''
Taking herder/shepherd types from protection sport/security/police, detection/tracking and actual herding lines, as well as bull terrier types from hunting, protection and athletic sport backgrounds- and then mixing the two is a VERY intriguing (and hopefully practical!) experiment...
---
My project's quite different to the other crosses of bull x herder that I've been seeing people do. Usually, people's aim seems to be focussed solely on protection/security work. Essentially, the aim (I guess) is for them to create tough, hard dogs that are a physically imposing deterrant, and that can defeat a criminal in combat if needed. The trainability, intelligence, drive, focus and lighter, quicker frame of the shepherd type must be there to improve the dog's all-round 'workability' (I don't even know if that's a real word!
:p
LOL). That, too is a part of my aim/vision- but I also need hunting
ability, and a dog that can fit into a rural working environment where
it roams free, OR live in a family flat and be taken on lead to the
fields to run (and come back when called!) OR be a security dog that
stays in the van until he needs to come out OR a sport dog who's
kenneled until training/competing time. Sounds like a lot to ask, but
then that's what makes it challenging and stimulating. Choosing the
right dogs, testing widely and then (universe willing!) doing breedings
that 'match up' well, there should be some useful and interesting dogs
produced...certainly after a few generations (though hopefully even from
the first breeding! :) :) :) ).
https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&q=human-canine+symbiosis&oq=human+canine+sym&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i22i30k1l3.34760.38352.0.40353.19.17.0.0.0.0.92.940.17.17.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.15.853.0..0j46j0i131k1j0i46k1.XDNUX5TzY7M
https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/08/23/the-dog-human-connection-in-evolution/
https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/08/23/the-dog-human-connection-in-evolution/
Most
likely, this would be symbiosis. This is especially true at the
neurobiological level, as humans provide food, shelter, and a pack (a
social structure) for dogs, and in return, dogs (try, and sometimes
succeed in trying to) give us their protection, and provide a number of services for us, from herding to guiding the blind to detecting freaking illnesses with nothing but their olfactory system,
and even providing bioemotional support. Have you ever had a dog lick
your tears and wounds? They approach you because, not only are your
tears tasty and full of salty goodness to them, but they may as
well be capable of smelling and mimicking your very sadness and grief,
reacting by comforting you so they can heal their own grief from
watching you suffer. As a whole, they are willing to live and die to see
you happy and loved, even if you're the only member of their pack. They
want you to be at your full ability to feed them and love them, and
they ensure that comfort by producing comfort for those they respect.
There are dogs that have been heroes and villains in localized human
history, all in the name of their pack, and the humans those packs
contain. We've told tales of man and dog saving the world, and with good
reason. And all because a small group of wolves started being less
hostile towards humans in ancient, long-forgotten primordial caverns.
-----
RRRSSSCCC!!!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4348122/
-----
The term "coevolution" is used to describe cases where two (or more) species reciprocally affect each other’s evolution.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&q=coevolution&oq=coevolution&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l4.1261.3426.0.3709.13.12.0.0.0.0.102.1060.11j1.12.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.11.981.0..0i131k1.A3BkLRkdZtc
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=coevolution+man+dog&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjam96jwvnVAhVmG5oKHWhzDUQQ_AUICSgA&biw=1759&bih=927&dpr=1.09
...
http://www.thedogplace.org/Genetics/Dogs-Changed-Evolution_Andrews-08.asp
***
origins of domestication of dogs
prehistoric, tribal and later rural dogs that had to 'do it all'
...
'common' rural people couldn't afford to feed x amount of dogs, when 1 (or 2) would do the job.
adaptable, multi-purpose dogs would be of great value.
---
nobility, peasantry, hunting, forests, rights?
hunting to extinction
deforestation
Hunting has been practised in Britain since prehistoric times; it was a crucial activity of hunter-gatherer societies before the domestication of animals and the dawn of agriculture.
During the last ice age, humans and neanderthals hunted mammoths and woolly rhinoceroses by driving them over cliffs; evidence has been found at La Cotte de St Brelade on the island of Jersey.
In Britain, hunting with hounds was popular in Celtic Britain before the Romans arrived, using the Agassaei breed.[2] The Romans brought their Castorian and Fulpine hound breeds to England, along with importing the brown hare (the mountain hare is native) and fallow deer as quarry. Wild boar was also hunted.
The earliest known attempt to specifically hunt a fox with hounds was in Norfolk, in the East of England, in 1534, where farmers began chasing down foxes with their dogs as a form of pest control. Packs of hounds were first trained specifically to hunt foxes in the late 17th century, with the oldest such fox hunt likely to be the Bilsdale in Yorkshire.[3] By the end of the 17th century, many organised packs were hunting both hare and fox.
origins of domestication of dogs
prehistoric, tribal and later rural dogs that had to 'do it all'
...
'common' rural people couldn't afford to feed x amount of dogs, when 1 (or 2) would do the job.
adaptable, multi-purpose dogs would be of great value.
---
nobility, peasantry, hunting, forests, rights?
hunting to extinction
deforestation
- 1700s—Poaching starts in Europe as poorer people cannot find another way to get food to survive.[1]
- 1880s—Peasants are allowed to hunt small game that is on their farms as a means of survival in Europe.
Hunting has been practised in Britain since prehistoric times; it was a crucial activity of hunter-gatherer societies before the domestication of animals and the dawn of agriculture.
During the last ice age, humans and neanderthals hunted mammoths and woolly rhinoceroses by driving them over cliffs; evidence has been found at La Cotte de St Brelade on the island of Jersey.
In Britain, hunting with hounds was popular in Celtic Britain before the Romans arrived, using the Agassaei breed.[2] The Romans brought their Castorian and Fulpine hound breeds to England, along with importing the brown hare (the mountain hare is native) and fallow deer as quarry. Wild boar was also hunted.
The earliest known attempt to specifically hunt a fox with hounds was in Norfolk, in the East of England, in 1534, where farmers began chasing down foxes with their dogs as a form of pest control. Packs of hounds were first trained specifically to hunt foxes in the late 17th century, with the oldest such fox hunt likely to be the Bilsdale in Yorkshire.[3] By the end of the 17th century, many organised packs were hunting both hare and fox.
Tuesday, 22 August 2017
SCENARIO TRAINING
We need to know what our goals are with our training of service or protection type dogs.
Each individuals has a different set of needs, and these- alongside the abilities of the dog, handler and trainer- will dictate how we approach training.
Do we seek sporting success, an operational security dog or an effective family guardian and deterrant to criminals?
That should be one of the first questions we ask.
The second might well be, 'What are my dog's natural abilities and limitations?'
There are many ways we can go about developing qualities and learned behaviour in the dogs, which will make them better equipped to (potentially) do their ultimate job- but in essence we should always be moving towards fitting together the pieces of the puzzle needed to form the complete 'picture'.
Different parts, separate elements of this on their own might work; we need them to work TOGETHER.
Much can be said about this, but if we look away from the sports we love for the minute, and focus on dogs we use to help make us safer in the real world, then we might want to quite carefully and deliberately analyse the types of environments and situations our dogs will work in, and how we can begin to move towards as realistic a simulation of this as possible.
If each dog and handler has different needs and a different role, why would we train them all the same?!
The military, police, rescue services etc. increasingly use high fidelity simulations and scenario training, to best prepare for the wide range of real situations they may potentially face.
IT WORKS FOR THEM, SO WHY NOT FOR US?!
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f8/91/b8/f891b841b2ab39b9f81f70ddc6d4aeb9--search-and-rescue-dogs-unusual-animals.jpg
-----
SITUATIONAL CONTROL
'WATCH OUT!' INSTEAD OF 'WATCH HIM!'
We need to know what our goals are with our training of service or protection type dogs.
Each individuals has a different set of needs, and these- alongside the abilities of the dog, handler and trainer- will dictate how we approach training.
Do we seek sporting success, an operational security dog or an effective family guardian and deterrant to criminals?
That should be one of the first questions we ask.
The second might well be, 'What are my dog's natural abilities and limitations?'
There are many ways we can go about developing qualities and learned behaviour in the dogs, which will make them better equipped to (potentially) do their ultimate job- but in essence we should always be moving towards fitting together the pieces of the puzzle needed to form the complete 'picture'.
Different parts, separate elements of this on their own might work; we need them to work TOGETHER.
Much can be said about this, but if we look away from the sports we love for the minute, and focus on dogs we use to help make us safer in the real world, then we might want to quite carefully and deliberately analyse the types of environments and situations our dogs will work in, and how we can begin to move towards as realistic a simulation of this as possible.
If each dog and handler has different needs and a different role, why would we train them all the same?!
The military, police, rescue services etc. increasingly use high fidelity simulations and scenario training, to best prepare for the wide range of real situations they may potentially face.
IT WORKS FOR THEM, SO WHY NOT FOR US?!
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f8/91/b8/f891b841b2ab39b9f81f70ddc6d4aeb9--search-and-rescue-dogs-unusual-animals.jpg
-----
SITUATIONAL CONTROL
'WATCH OUT!' INSTEAD OF 'WATCH HIM!'
Monday, 21 August 2017
bokos belah
(bokos double x legits pride), an early english import by dr. cohen and a half-sister of the famous bokos brock, the first colored male champion (dutch)
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/540975_354570797980347_984112788_n.jpg?oh=aae14496da87e2f34a394c8d169af275&oe=5A366D00
--------
*** !!!RSRSRSRSRS!!! ***
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sheep+herding+malinois
---------
(bokos double x legits pride), an early english import by dr. cohen and a half-sister of the famous bokos brock, the first colored male champion (dutch)
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/540975_354570797980347_984112788_n.jpg?oh=aae14496da87e2f34a394c8d169af275&oe=5A366D00
--------
*** !!!RSRSRSRSRS!!! ***
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sheep+herding+malinois
---------
Sunday, 20 August 2017
*** PROTECTION TESTS ***
PASSIVE SITUATIONS
MULTIPLE ATTACKERS >
> DOG'S ATTNTN FRONT, 2ND CRIM ATTACKS FROM REAR
ATTACK ON HANDLER >
DUSTBIN
STREAMERS AND OTHER 'CREATIVE ACCESSORIES'
*** ESQUIVES ***
SURPRISE ATTACK WHERE EVEN THE HANDLER DOESN'T KNOW IT'S COMING (OBVIOUSLY HAVE TO GET HANDLER'S PERMISSION AND WARN THEM AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TRAINING DAY/COMPETITION)
---
* PRESSURE *
PINCHING DOG
KICKING DOG
PRESSING DOG
PASSIVE SITUATIONS
MULTIPLE ATTACKERS >
> DOG'S ATTNTN FRONT, 2ND CRIM ATTACKS FROM REAR
ATTACK ON HANDLER >
DUSTBIN
STREAMERS AND OTHER 'CREATIVE ACCESSORIES'
*** ESQUIVES ***
SURPRISE ATTACK WHERE EVEN THE HANDLER DOESN'T KNOW IT'S COMING (OBVIOUSLY HAVE TO GET HANDLER'S PERMISSION AND WARN THEM AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TRAINING DAY/COMPETITION)
---
* PRESSURE *
PINCHING DOG
KICKING DOG
PRESSING DOG
Friday, 18 August 2017
Yes,
indeed. We have some dogs with fight drive and ability to take pressure
here. Some dogs get tested pretty hard (which is good, especially for
proofing real-world security/protection dogs, and definitely for testing
dogs which may be used to breed police, security and protection dogs).
That's great and needed, but not for all dogs. We've (almost!) ended up
where everyone just wants the toughest, driviest dog- and control,
thinking and other factors are (were?) in danger of going out the
window. Another factor with ONLY doing hard testing, with physical and
environmental pressure, and doing it TOO MUCH, is that 1) not all dogs
are suited to that or need it 2) even some dogs that do well end up a
bit fucked up from getting bashed up so many times- even if they do
generally fight through the pressure, get the bite and 'win' (I suspect
some dogs end up thinking that 'survive' is the better word, and begin
to lose interest in repeatedly doing that...). So, I and others are
making efforts to widen the work programs here, add social stability
work and tests, obedience and control and some more varied, fun but also
realistic scenario training. A lot of the time, especially in the UK
where firearms still aren't that commonplace, a good old fashioned
snapping, snarling dog doing a good display will 'do the job' in
protection, and as a security handler we need to be aware of the
scrutiny of the law and all the cameras about, etc.
Thursday, 17 August 2017
*** RRR ***
http://www.australian-cattledogs.com/australian-cattle-dog/geschichte.htm
-----
https://archive.org/details/britishwardogsth00richrich
PICS FROM P224 >
these ww1 airedales look to me like bull terrier x sheepdog of some kind :)
-----
http://www.k9history.com/WWI-biography-ehrichardson.htm
ALL KINDS OF DOGS WERE USED AND TRIED OUT, BUT ULTIMATELY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, WE ARE LEFT WITH THE MALINOIS AND GSD BEING THE MAIN BREEDS...
---
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/85/ea/ff/85eaff223a485068bd3bc49a8c8329ad--dog-training-school-dog-whisperer.jpg
---
http://www.australian-cattledogs.com/australian-cattle-dog/geschichte.htm
-----
https://archive.org/details/britishwardogsth00richrich
PICS FROM P224 >
these ww1 airedales look to me like bull terrier x sheepdog of some kind :)
-----
http://www.k9history.com/WWI-biography-ehrichardson.htm
ALL KINDS OF DOGS WERE USED AND TRIED OUT, BUT ULTIMATELY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, WE ARE LEFT WITH THE MALINOIS AND GSD BEING THE MAIN BREEDS...
---
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/85/ea/ff/85eaff223a485068bd3bc49a8c8329ad--dog-training-school-dog-whisperer.jpg
---
Q: Why do some Old-Time Scotch Collies look more like modern Rough Collies and others look more like Aussies?
Short answer: Old-Time Scotch Collies are a “landrace breed”. Read on to learn what constitutes a landrace breed, how they differ from “purebred” dog breeds and how we can maintain this healthy, hearty and intelligent population.
---
Short answer: Old-Time Scotch Collies are a “landrace breed”. Read on to learn what constitutes a landrace breed, how they differ from “purebred” dog breeds and how we can maintain this healthy, hearty and intelligent population.
What is a “landrace”?
Landraces are local populations of animals that are consistent enough to be considered breeds, but are more variable in appearance than are standardized breeds.Many purebred dog breeds started out as a landrace and were further refined and standardized through selective breeding towards a written “breed standard”. So it was with the Scotch Collie, as breeders worked towards their arbitrary standard, the dogs evolved into the heavy-coated, long nosed, aristocratic dog we know today as the Rough Collie.
A combination of human and natural selection has shaped the evolution of landrace breeds. Natural selection and geographical isolation have created genetic consistency and adaptation to the local environment.
A Conservation Breeding Handbook
by D. Philip Sponenberg and Carolyn J. Christman
http://www.albc-usa.org/documents/CBH%20chapter%201.pdf
---
Wednesday, 16 August 2017
Thursday, 3 August 2017
''Untiring, always zealous for duty, always attentive, always ready to serve, such is the character of our shepherd dog.''
''Breeding should never be made with animals that are not in work. The proof of the education of the dog for work is a necessity for admission for breeding, rather than Show honors, which afford a very misleading idea of a dog’s value for breeding.''
''The most striking features of the correctly bred German Shepherds are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity and hardness.''
''Whoever can find the answer to the question “How shall I say this to my dog?” has won the game and can develop from his animal whatever he likes.''
''The trainer must first learn self control before he can control the dog. He must always know how to adapt his methods to the nature of the dog''
http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-utility-is-the-true-criterion-of-beauty-max-von-stephanitz-113-97-92.jpg
''Breeding should never be made with animals that are not in work. The proof of the education of the dog for work is a necessity for admission for breeding, rather than Show honors, which afford a very misleading idea of a dog’s value for breeding.''
''The most striking features of the correctly bred German Shepherds are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity and hardness.''
''Whoever can find the answer to the question “How shall I say this to my dog?” has won the game and can develop from his animal whatever he likes.''
''The trainer must first learn self control before he can control the dog. He must always know how to adapt his methods to the nature of the dog''
http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-utility-is-the-true-criterion-of-beauty-max-von-stephanitz-113-97-92.jpg
Wednesday, 2 August 2017
The whole 'sport vs street' argument is a bit of a waste of time from my perspective, as the best approach for me is based on sport training, adapted for specific real-world jobs and needs.
Ringsport is the breed test that brought the malinois/mechelaar to prominence, developed the animals themselves and their training and handling, and gives us a benchmark to measure working abilities.
These programs, or our approach to them, shouldn't lose sight of the fact we're produing service dogs for the real world, and so communication with and feedback from law enforcement, the military and high-level security professionals should inspire and influence how we engage with 'sport'.
We look for certain all-round qualities in the dogs, and adaptable methods of modifying the dogs' behaviour to specific goals and working with them as a team.
Ringsport is the breed test that brought the malinois/mechelaar to prominence, developed the animals themselves and their training and handling, and gives us a benchmark to measure working abilities.
These programs, or our approach to them, shouldn't lose sight of the fact we're produing service dogs for the real world, and so communication with and feedback from law enforcement, the military and high-level security professionals should inspire and influence how we engage with 'sport'.
We look for certain all-round qualities in the dogs, and adaptable methods of modifying the dogs' behaviour to specific goals and working with them as a team.
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